We were one vote away from passing paid leave

More than 90% of Americans support a national paid leave policy. So why does the U.S. still not have one? And what will it actually take for paid leave to pass?

Few people have done more to answer those questions - or push for a solution - than Dawn Huckelbridge.

She’s led the national campaign for paid family and medical leave as founding director of Paid Leave for All. With 20 years of experience in gender, policy and politics, she’s one of the clearest voices driving this movement forward.

In this episode, Dawn shares what it’s really like to advocate for paid leave in a divided Congress - and why the issue continues to stall despite overwhelming public support. 

She breaks down the misconceptions that hold policy back, the role money and storytelling play in legislative change, and why paid leave is so much more than a “women’s issue.”

She also explains why she believes paid leave is a “silver bullet” policy - one that strengthens public health, economic growth and equity and what all of us can do to help move it forward.

Allison: Dawn, thank you so much for joining me today.

‍Dawn: Thank you for having me.

‍Allison: I am so excited to ask you a bunch of questions like I was sharing before. I don't actually know a lot about the policy and government side of paid leave. And so I'm hoping that over the next 20-ish minutes, we can get a deeper understanding of that side of the house, as well as sort of all the usual suspect questions around paid leave.

But before we get into that, I would love to hear why this is your focus? What is it about paid leave that drew you into this and continues to sustain your sort of time and I'm sure mental health in a way that is very, you know, what is it about paid leave that is so exciting for you?

‍Dawn: Yeah, happy to. It's my favorite topic. So I had worked in gender and policy and politics for my whole career. And this is sort of a line you'll hear from a lot of people. wasn't until I became a mother that I really realized what… a failure it was in this country, the lack of policy infrastructure for families, for parents, for mothers specifically. I was lucky I did have a little bit of paid leave, which is more than most people in this country actually. I was lucky I had health insurance, I was lucky I had supportive family, but I still felt like this is the hardest thing I've ever been through and it's shocking. I knew it was gonna be hard, the level of just feeling unsupported and feeling invisible and feeling frankly really sick and desperate. I just had not anticipated. So it made me get much more excited about this issue on a personal level.

But then when I started working with this campaign, I had worked a bit in paid leave, studied it in grad school. But with the campaign, the more I learned about it, the more I realized that paid leave is truly what I think of as like a silver bullet issue. It is a public health tool. It is an economic tool. helps drive the economy. It helps increase jobs and wages and GDP. It is a tool for equity and a more fair economy. If everyone has access to these kinds of benefits, it's going to create a more level playing field. It's going to create more entrepreneurship. More people will start small businesses or be self-employed. And actually, businesses will retain more talented workers when they have the benefits and when workers have access to these benefits.

So I love it because to me it's like this issue, this policy that if we passed it federally, I think it would just have such huge ramifications that would unfold for generations to come.

Allison: I totally agree. I almost hate to ask you this question. It almost feels like so obvious that this is such a good thing for so many different reasons. And yet we've heard about it for years and years and there was a lot of momentum at a certain point in time with like Build Back Better. And I think so many people got so excited about it and it didn't pass then. why, I hate to ask why doesn't exist. Maybe to ask a more specific question, who is stopping this when we know that the overwhelming majority of Americans support a national paid leave policy?

‍Dawn: Yeah, it's one of the most popular issues in the country. We did polling. This was in battleground states before the election. And 91 % of voters wanted national paid leave. But yes, we had a very roller coaster history throughout the negotiations that were the Build Back Better Act or would have benefited passing the Senate. We came really close to passing national paid leave in 2021, exactly as you said.

It was a wild ride getting there. It was in the package, it was out, it was compromised, it was replaced. It ended up passing in the House of Representatives for the first time in history. But we were basically a vote short in the Senate. A vote that at one point we thought we had. So.

It's frustrating to get that close, but something I say often and I've heard people in Congress like Jimmy Gomez say is that things that feel just so impossible or so far away or even some people think radical, one day the opportunity comes up and it's like it was inevitable.

And it's normalized and happens and you have to be ready. But I think what's stopping it is, you know, it was broadly popular across party lines. I think there have been some big business lobbies that pushed against it and built back better.

there were some specific ones, but generally it is really popular. think in Congress there is still a lot of sexism, there is still racism. I think that these issues which are very economic, very broadly and universal are still seen as sort of social issues, still seen as women's issues and de-prioritized as a result.

But our job is to change that and to take the momentum from Build Back Better and keep growing it, keep educating people, keeping it in the headlines, making the case for why it's relevant. And we just have to push through. It's a hard time in Congress. There's a lot of obstructionism. There's a lot of disagreement about the role of government and what we should be investing in and what we should be cutting.

But we know from state programs that paid leave is a positive return on investment. We know that it is successful and that helps both businesses and families.

Allison: What is it like in the room with some of these politicians trying to convince them to get on your side? What are the conversations about? What are the things, who are the people you bring into the room? What's the data? Like for those of us who have absolutely no experience in politics, what does that look like?

Dawn: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. That's a question. Well, also broadly, what is really important is yes, of course, numbers. Everyone loves the polling. But what I think moves, often moves electeds most, and I think what we as human beings relate to most more than data or statistics is just stories. It's what our brains are wired to remember. It's what gets our attention. And it's important for elected officials to relate to, hopefully they're relating to their constituents back home. So that's something we always try to be mindful of is, you know, it's always best to bring a really impacted person from an elected district or state. It's really important that we're lifting up the people most, again, most affected, the people most in need of these policies.

But the interactions range wildly, of course, different politics, different personalities. I will say what we focus most on is who are the movable metals? Who are the people that we can actually change some hearts and minds? I think it's just human behavior and looking at people's interests, people's motivations, what drives them, what's gonna pique their interest. that's a big part of advocacy is not always, yes, you wanna beat down as many doors as you can, but it's also thinking about who you can bring along.

Allison: How much of this also has to do with money? And the reason I ask that is I've met with several women in sort of areas that focus on supporting different aspects of women, whether it's women's health or other aspects of the sort of female experience. And what I've heard over and over again is for whatever reason, it's really hard to raise money. So how, if you're focused on like a woman's important issue. How much of this has to do with money? Like, do you just need more money or is it way more complicated than that?

Dawn: The advocacy movement, you mean?

Allison: Yeah, like paid leave. Like if we had someone come in and say, here's $5 billion, is that what it takes? And maybe this is just me from an outsider's perspective. It just feels like there's a lot of money in politics and usually the money kind of wins, right?

Dawn: Yeah, yeah, there, I sadly, yeah, well, you're exactly right. And sadly, we have a political system where money talks, that's how things get done. I want to change it. But until we change it, we have to kind of figure out how to have success within the system we're working in.

So you're right, often people will say, what can you learn from movements that have had big wins in the last 10 years? And I say, sadly, a lot of them had a lot of money. But it's not just, I'm not just saying that we're talking about like trading favors or doing, it's also just you have the resources to build a field, to have staff and organizers to be able to have direct contacts with more elected officials.

Allison: Yeah. Right.

Dawn: To be able to do ads in strategic and smart ways. So there's the power of the people, the power of the dollar, and women's, what has been seen again, I don't think paid leave is just a women's issue, but things that have been seen as women's issues are still severely underfunded. mean, I've said philanthropy as a whole, I think it's like 1 % or less if it goes to women and girls.

And then, money too, you know, it's interesting in Congress, there is a debate about spending and money, and we seem to find the money when we want to. When it's a priority, it usually happens. So I think budgets are moral documents.

Allison: Right.

Allison: Yeah. And say a little bit more, because I completely agree with you about the paid leave movement is not a women's movement. It is paid leave for all. It's literally in the name of your organization. And I think oftentimes people do think of it as maternity leave. That's not at all what this is. So maybe say a little bit more about why we really need to be thinking about this as all types of paid leave.

Dawn: Yeah, well, and kind of just to what we're talking about, I think it will be much easier to succeed when it is seen as more than just a woman's issue and when we pull more people along. Yeah, so I mean, the truth is, obviously, every single one of us is going to need to give or receive or both care in our lifetimes. Every one of us is going to get sick. We're going to lose a parent. Most of us will have children.

Allison: I agree.

Dawn: And this is something that increasingly people are doing both caring for elder parents and caring for children at the same time. Sandwich generation is growing, baby boomers are continuing to age, and we don't have the policies to support this sort of care boom and care crisis that's coming.

So it is, you know, and more and more, think men, I'm glad to say, are doing caregiving, more of it. So this is an everyone issue. You want to be able to have time, again, when you get sick or you have an injury, whether that's a rail worker or whether that's a new mom. So this is absolutely an issue that's relevant to all of our lives.

Allison: Let's talk a little bit about the states because I think that there's so much interesting momentum that we're seeing in so many states around this issue. My perception as an outsider looking into the sort of politics of it is that a lot of these states are saying, okay, we believe so deeply in this. We have so many people within our state that want this that we're just gonna do it ourselves. Is that typically coming from governors, from the state? Like who's doing that on a local basis?

Dawn: Yeah, I mean, we've seen such energy at the state and local level, but that's also not just true with paid leave. think. States and cities have been sort of innovators for a long time on policy and they're much more likely to actually just get things done and across party lines than Congress has been. They have to actually deliver results for their people. So yes, we've seen a number of states, they're growing. We're seeing local winds everywhere from Cleveland to Alabama. It's exciting, we're seeing more states pass policies for their public workers, for educators, for teachers.

And we're trying to keep that momentum growing because at the end of the day, we want more paid leave for more people. But what is interesting is you're right that there are a lot of prominent governors who are very loud about paid leave and a lot of them are very ambitious people.

And I think this is a common thread, and I hope it's something that catches on at all levels of office, is that I think people who are really savvy politicians understand this is a winning issue politically. This is a popular issue. It's a way to tangibly help people's lives. Their financial stress, their emotional day-to-day stress. We talk about cost of living, the costs of care or losing wages without paid leave are going to be the biggest expenses in many cases you have in your lifetime. So I am hopeful that we keep that conversation going and that we can talk about how paid leave is an issue. is a policy that works to help your life.

Allison: Is it harder, maybe this is a bad question or a trick question, but it's funny seeing what's happening right now in the news, in the government with all of this change, I have to imagine it's really hard to stay front and center. So how do you think about breaking through the noise when there's just a lot happening and so much change at the government epicenter?

Dawn: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question because it's a crazy news cycle. It's a crazy world that we're living in right now. This week is blowing up specifically.

You know, I used to work in comms actually, so it's something I think about a lot, is how do you stay relevant? How do you keep finding ways? And when there's not immediate sort of legislative opportunities, how do you find creative ways to be front and center? And so, like for instance, Pavely for All is doing an action this week for Head of Mother's Day, where we're partnering with businesses across the country, and we're gonna be hosting pop-ups in cities and then an online sort of digital giveaway. So it's over $130,000 that is being given to mothers. And the idea is we, in this moment of craziness in the news and otherwise, we need to show up for moms when policymakers aren't. And we need to make sure that there's feeling seen, that they're experiencing community and mutual aid, and also using this as a vehicle to keep paid leave in the narrative.

Allison: What can regular people do to support this movement? There are so many people that are so passionate about paid leave for all as a broad category. What can we do?

Dawn: Yeah. So many things. And it's easy to feel powerless these days, but you're not.

So first of all, again, more paid leave for more people. So make sure you know your rights at your own workplace. Make sure you know how to navigate them. Make sure you are talking to your elected officials, that you are talking to the business community, talking to elected officials at all levels, asking them specifically, do they support paid leave and federal electeds? What are they doing to advance it? Because just a reminder that these people work for you. You're their boss.

And they actually do listen. They may not always act on what you're asking for, but they do log calls that they get. They do log, you know, they pay attention to meetings. Their staff keep track of, you know, who's asking for what. So your voice matters. Share your story. We have lots of ways on social media. You can follow us at DM or, you know, in the comments, share your own story. And yeah, I think just use your voice, use your vote, and keep showing up for community in the meantime.

Allison: How much of your time and energy is spent focusing on convincing companies to roll out paid leave policies?

Dawn: So we don't personally do a lot of that because we're mostly focused on the policy. But I think that's really important because until we get the sort of gold standard policies that we want, again, we want people to have access to this wherever they can.

So there are some of our partners do work more with the business community. And we certainly encourage, you know, like for instance, what we're doing this week, we're partnering with a lot of socially responsible companies. And we are definitely encouraging all the ones we work with to keep policies, to gain policies, to improve policies. But particularly in really small businesses, it can be hard to just pay out of pocket. So that's what we're trying to navigate with some federal support as well.

Allison: Yeah, and I would say like, I am constantly shocked at how powerful individuals are to convince their companies. And so I just want to throw that out there that we see this every single week at Parentaly where we're hearing people talk about, I asked for this and I got it. And so I actually think that's a smart strategy of like, how do we just encourage the regular folks like me and everyone else listening to continue to advocate, everyone should be advocating for this at your own company. And then there are other things you can do because again, it's almost, it's funny. It's almost like how you talk about how politicians will listen to their constituents. Employers will listen to their employees before they will listen to an outsider. And so it's very similar in many ways.

Dawn: Yeah, and I would also say I definitely agree with you. Particularly if you have seniority, if you have privilege within your company, I would say ask for it on behalf of those who may not or may feel more afraid to ask, unless a position of strength to do it. I will say I remember before I got pregnant, my workplace, which will go unnamed, had no paid leave policy.

They were in the process of just saying you can borrow from sick days, you can borrow from. And a man, a man in seniority, requested a formal paid family leave policy. And it was when that pretty senior man asked for it that it happened. So just a reminder that, yes, use your power, use your privilege.

Allison: Yeah, yeah. And especially, you know, another thing that some of my friends talk about doing is I'm now past the sort of childbearing phase of my life as are most of my friends. And they talk about how when they interview for jobs, because there's something about being more senior and you don't actually need access to the paid leave policy. Oftentimes you can feel more secure even asking in job interviews, especially when

For whatever reason, if you feel like this isn't even for my benefit, I feel more comfortable asking. There's a lot of power in that as well because from a company's perspective, they are very much monitoring what are candidates for jobs asking about, not even just employees, but like what will matter because that attraction of talent is so important. What is some of like the wildest pushback that you've heard against paid leave that you're like, I cannot believe this person said that.

Dawn: I wish I'd kept this list. There was a certain senator who thought people would just abuse the time off and go hunting, maybe use the money for drugs, and just to counter that, lest you were worried. There's research in the States, and there's virtually no abuse of these programs. But yeah, I mean, I think...everything from people will run with the money and go hunting to that this is just a socialist policy. know, that these that this is something radical and some liberal fantasy. And it's something that, again, everyone will need. It's common sense. It's a it's a good investment for everyone involved, whether you're in the private sector or not. But it's also something that most of the world has.

Most people in world have access to some form of paid leave, and we are an extreme outlier. It's us and a few small island nations that don't have paid leave policies of any kind. So we're losing in terms of the economic activity, again, the jobs and wages we could be generating, and we're falling behind other leading nations.

Allison: Recently, it was reported that the administration has been brainstorming ways to convince women to have more babies. And I think that actually brought paid leave to the forefront yet again around like that wasn't even on the list. And yet, you know, all these other ideas like $5,000 and a medal and whatnot. How do you use that to your advantage? Like, great, you have this goal of convincing people to have more kids. I got an idea for you. Did that help your movement? Did you do things differently when that came out?

Dawn: Yeah. Well, I think you have to just jump on every narrative opportunity. So a bunch of us pushed it out to the news, did some op-ed pieces. It was wild. I think the proposals, I heard everything from coupons to buy minivans to the motherhood medal, which is disturbing for a lot of reasons. Yeah, this whole project is really problematic, but exactly right. I think anyone who is a thinking person realizes that if you want to allow families to grow and thrive, and however they choose to, they have to have resources and supports that we completely lack. And in fact, we're further cutting, we're cutting things like head start. Like we don't want kids to have early education and food and so it's wild.

Allison: Yeah. I guess, what are some of the key lessons that you've learned from states? What has gone well, what has not gone well, and how does that impact your strategy?

Dawn: That's an interesting question. the states, I mean now it's been around for decades going back to California. They've learned a lot from each other and they do communicate with each other. And so I think policies have sort of learned and improved over time.

And the federal bill that exists was based off of sort of the best practices from those policies. So there's a few things that we think are really, again, best practices, kind of model ideas about it, which is just to address the realities of families today. So as we were saying earlier, ideally, it's not just maternity leave. Families look different ways. We have all different kinds of caregiving needs. So ideally, it is comprehensive. It is inclusive. Ideally, it includes not just parents, too, similarly, and include sort of chosen family and people that are actually doing that caregiving. And another example is we want workers to hold on to as much of their paycheck as they can, and particularly the workers that make the lowest amount, because it's going to be really hard to live on if it's just a fraction of your salary.

So yeah, we've learned a lot like that. But I think what's really important, and actually we're working on a big, secret project about this, but it's just to learn how it impacts daily lives. Again, it's like the data is important, but the stories are what gets to your heart. So to think about over the decades that paid leave has existed in the States or existed in the corporate sector, you know, the lives that have been saved, the jobs that have been saved, the people who've been able to recover or be there when their parent was dying, be there to see their babies for a smile.

‍Allison: Right. Mm-hmm.

Dawn: That's incredible. The sky didn't fall down in the States. And what's more, they're thriving. Businesses are doing better. There's higher performance, productivity, and profitability. So it is a good thing. It works. And that's what we're trying to, the gospel we're trying to spread.

Allison: In December, you announced that you have new support from Melinda French-Gate's organization, Pivotal. Are you able to share more about what that is?

Dawn: Yeah, she has been, Pivotal has been a supporter from the very beginning. They're one of our first supporters and they have been an excellent partner. I talking about the 1 % of philanthropy going to women and girls, that's something that Melinda Gates is really trying to change. And she's been a real leader on it. There's not a lot of people talking about that.

And she's trying to both talk about it, give more herself and inspire others to follow suit. So they have remained a supporter and they upped the support, which meant a lot because it was interesting. After Build Back Better, when we were that one vote away, I'll be candid, we lost a lot of donors. And someone said, everyone loves the parade. you're so close to winning, everybody wants to get on board. Everyone wants to take credit. But what was amazing to me is I said, well, yeah, we didn't get it this time, but we came closer than we ever have in history. And in what world? Like how often do you, issues that are more seen as men or general, you know, how often do we get that close? And then I was like, well, better give up, you know?

So what I appreciate is she has recognized the progress that has been made, the momentum that still remains. And the opportunity that is still there. And we still believe that, as I said, I think things can change on a dime and we want to be ready. So she is investing more and we're doing more with states and we're also doing more creative projects. And we're basically just trying to keep growing instead of stalling just because the moment's not immediately in front of us.

Allison: Okay, we are almost at time. I have a final question. How do you stay motivated?

Dawn: Hmm. That's a great question. Thanks. Some days it's not the easiest. yeah, I think I never forget why I do the work that I do. You know, I always stay rooted in that. And I try to be rooted in the fact that we work in this amazing campaign and coalition of people. many of them directly impacted. I think a lot about that, about community, about who we're serving. And frankly, it's a lot of, you know, glasses of wine with dinner and hanging out with my son who inspires me every day.

Allison: I love that. think, I mean, what you're doing is infinitely more difficult than what I'm doing. And I, but I always say that it's knowing that what you're doing really, really matters. But I just think, gosh, you have so, it's gotta be so difficult to navigate so many different pieces of a complicated picture. But what I think I'm taking away from this conversation more than anything is that,

Dawn: Yeah.

Allison: I agree with you, you just never really know when there's gonna be this opportunity that cracks open and you've laid this incredible foundation over years and years and years and you are ready. And so I think for me as a listener and someone who's observing your work and the work of others in this space is, it is just very inspiring to think that we're ready, you know, and we're gonna keep being ready. I believe with every fiber of my being that this is inevitable. And the question is when and not if. And I get the sense that that's exactly how you feel.

‍Dawn: Yeah I love that. Yes, we say that often. And I also think that in the meantime, while we're getting ready for that opportunity, paid leave is an issue that can be used to keep moving the general politics ahead. It is something that unites us. It is something, as we said, is popular across party lines, across walks of life. It's something that we all will experience at some point.

Allison: Right.

Dawn: And again, it's my favorite issue. So I do think it is important from all of these different aspects and for all different constituencies. But I'm hopeful that we're going to use it to tell a story that we have more in common than we thought, that community and connection and care does matter and impacts all of us. And hopefully soon we'll have a chance to get this over the finish line.

Allison: Amazing. And with that, we are done. Thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your story.

Dawn: Thanks for having me and thanks for what you do, too.